Transcript Interview: 
Rudolf Paulus Gorbach (German typographer, author, lecturer, and co-initiator of the international working group Lesbar)

Questions:
Which typographic elements in digital interfaces could promote learning?
Are you aware of any empirical evidence supporting the influence of typographic elements on learning effectiveness?
How can typographic principles be designed in digital learning technologies to be aesthetically appealing, meaningful, and credible, thereby promoting sustainable learning?
Would you be interested in contributing to a study on this topic through feedback or expertise?
 

Transcript
[00:01]  Interviewer: Okay, I'll start now, I know.
[00:02] Gorbach: Not whether she announced it, exactly.
[00:07]  Interviewer: And that's where I started my doctorate two years ago, or a year and a half ago, and then I actually wanted to focus on feel-good spaces, how to feel comfortable in the digital world or with digital technologies, because many people are so afraid of technology, especially in teaching settings, because something can go wrong and then you'd rather not use it. But then I realized, through my quantitative research, that it's incredibly difficult to measure feelings. So I moved away from that idea and asked myself again, what interests me most or what bothers me most? And what bothers me most are actually surfaces that look like they're from the ERN in a typography where you think it can't be true that this even exists. And then I started looking for quantitative research on fonts and font communication in the digital world. My focus is really on digital education, and there's relatively little out there. So now I'm starting on a qualitative level, with interviews, which isn't really a quantitative research method, but through interviews I'm trying to get closer to the question of whether a) there is something I've overlooked, and b) if I haven't overlooked it, is it because it's not necessarily a field that many people want to research because it's actually so irrelevant? So, between you and me, it's not irrelevant, of course, I realize that, but for many people it's not a research topic at all. I have the advantage that I don't have to make a name for myself through my research work. I am very successful, I don't need to make a name for myself through my research work. I don't have a research career ahead of me, I'm doing this more or less as further training. That's nice, of course, because I'm also allowed to do my doctorate at a very successful chair. But I don't have any pressure to perform at that level, so I can take a very small building block that is actually unnoticed and research it and perhaps make a small contribution to ensuring that quantitative research results also receive a change or an argument in design, which is often missing. Now I've tried to frame it a bit, and then I sent along a few questions that I have. So there's a lot of quantitative research from Adobe, for example, on which font to use where, or all this reading typography, which I think is quite well researched. However, I'm missing some. And the question is, which design elements in typography have been proven to promote learning? So the question now is whether there is already something out there and, if so, whether there is empirical evidence for it, i.e., whether there are studies I can refer to, or whether you can't think of anything either. I read your book, and there was quantitative research in it.
[04:07] Gorbach: You mean legible, right?
[04:09]  Interviewer: Exactly, readable typography in knowledge transfer. There was one by the physicist, or by the two of them, which was more about the basics of design, right? So not about typography. And I'm looking specifically for design elements in typography.
[04:30] Gorbach: Right.
[04:33]  Interviewer: Exactly, maybe we can take the block first.
[04:37] Gorbach: The empirical one. That's the big problem in our industry in general, which I've always been accused of. You make a claim and it's not substantiated. And that's how it was. And that's what led me to approach the group lesbar, or rather its predecessor, to encourage research that we couldn't necessarily do ourselves, but that others could do with us. The circle goes from linguists to, well, we have very good contacts in Vienna, and all the way to the craftsmanship. And my argument for why it didn't necessarily have to be research, for why it finally had to be proven, was always the craftsmanship, where I also said, it's not like when someone planes wood, they learn it and can do it, but they can't explain it. You can't prove it, you can only say the result, that it's finely planed, etc. It's not a comparison, just an argument, because I also see the craftsmanship in typography, that as a typographer, if you do it really fundamentally, you learn a lot, but you only know approximately. I always tried to break through that, but the evidence is difficult to find. And with the project we've just completed on good design for easy language, we were simply interested in proving these things. We have to prove it, otherwise no one will believe us. We are fighting for good design against associations that invented it themselves 20 years ago and still believe it is the right thing to do. So that's a task we have here, and it's only just begun. The standard has only just been released. And that's a small example for me. We have a fairly large team, and then of course when it comes to the work, the team becomes very small, but you probably know that too. We just put together what we think is important for this. In the area of font selection, it's pretty well documented, in design it's just beginning, and in microtypography, really only what you know about functional typography. And we've now put that together. We're staying on topic because I've just suggested building models that demonstrate such functions and then testing them. So that means contacting a university that would do something like that. The problem was always that we didn't have that, and German universities didn't do any research, or rarely did. It was just our own research, which was often very good. Like Wilberg, for example.
[08:17]  Interviewer: Exactly.
[08:17] Gorbach: Yes, yes. And that's where we are now, in the middle or at the beginning, isn't it? Can we prove that these things are true? That's not our job. We know it's true, but...
[08:38]  Interviewer: That's exactly where the argument comes in, at least for me, because you just can't get any further, can you?
[08:46] Gorbach: Yes, you can't get any further, can you? So then I get a slight smile from science. Oh, is that how you do it?
[08:54]  Interviewer: Yes, yes.
[08:55] Gorbach: So I'm not being taken seriously then.
[08:58]  Interviewer: And then people say that the arts aren't taken seriously, right? The arts in the broader sense, of course.
[09:03] Gorbach: Even with the discipline, although I always qualify and exclude that and say we're not art.
[09:11]  Interviewer: Yes, the 90s understand that.
[09:14] Gorbach: We are not art at all. We have to, everything has to work for us. In art, that's the art, I can say that. Wonderful.
[09:24]  Interviewer: Art can claim that, that's so true.
[09:27] Gorbach: Yes. And we can't just claim it, it's also about the fact that it's actually true.
[09:39]  Interviewer: Yes, that's exciting. So let me summarize briefly. You also see a gap there, right?
[09:49] Gorbach: A big gap.
[09:50]  Interviewer: And if you were my mentor, imagine you were my mentor, what would you wish for? If I were to check something in the digital space, what would it be? It's on the screen, right? So that's something else, we agree, that's something else, right? It's like when I look at something in a book. Where would you tell me that the typography needs to be checked and that it really needs to be an element? It doesn't necessarily have to be. So, as I said, I might go back to the structure and design of pages. The design principles are already established, or that it has some kind of impact.
[10:42] Gorbach: Yes, but many people in the digital sector doubt or disregard this. In this respect, I do think that the basis, the font, can actually be neglected. There are many things that are good and actually work well. And what happens on the screen is often much better than in print.
[11:15]  Interviewer: Yes, but may I, I don't want to push too hard, but I could show you what my research has revealed, right? And I have three things I'd like to share with you about what I'm fighting against. So this is our learning management system, this is the current situation, this is what you have to deal with.
[11:43] Gorbach: So that's like helpless on the screen, like before, that's that.
[11:54]  Interviewer: It's the University of Teacher Education and that's the University of Zurich.
[11:58] Gorbach: Horrible, yes.
[11:59]  Interviewer: And this is a tool recommended by the Swiss University Association. So that's just it, that's the reality in academia, right? You just have to realize what we're talking about, or we're not talking about them now.
[12:24] Gorbach: Cool website from Apple, but it starts with the fact that basic principles of readability are being disregarded. It's simply the long lines that can only be read by following them with your head. It's just exhausting. And that's one basic principle, that the layout on the page doesn't correspond to the actual content. I don't mean short columns or anything like that, but the classic type of thing you see in book typography, also because of the line break, which works well, which you use, and which perhaps also allows you to use the space in a much more exciting way and not be afraid of white space.
[13:32]  Interviewer: That goes without saying. So we see that as typographers or designers or even as design enthusiasts. If we go back, as I said, to the design of spaces or good design on websites, we also agree that there are good studies, for example by Adobe, that look at typography, i.e., typefaces. That's well known, right? But if you look at it again, you also looked at didactic typography earlier. What else could be brought out from the design elements in typography? So is there anything that could be looked at to promote learning effectiveness?
[14:40] Gorbach: What do you mean by examples, or what?
[14:44]  Interviewer: Well, we considered the basic principles, for example, it was also mentioned at the beginning about Swiss typography from the perspective of clarity, structure, perhaps now really, so I'm not going to pit Comic Sans against Helvetica, or, well, I don't think I'll try that.
[15:11] Gorbach: We don't need that anymore.
[15:12]  Interviewer: No, we don't need that anymore. That's already been proven, right? But rather, what could be examined, what the...
[15:24] Gorbach: Well, what immediately comes to mind is that it's not so much about the font itself, but rather about the classification. How can the classification be appropriate for the reader and make for comfortable reading? How can the units be combined? A topic that we are also discussing now. Do you think things are similar in print? There are many parallels. I can tell you briefly that we had tried in a group to compile maxims for didactic projects, for textbooks, schoolbooks. What is important for the design? The project didn't get anywhere because the team kept shrinking. So we became impatient and ended up with completely different opinions, with some saying that we, as designers, should have a say in the texts, to which I said, for heaven's sake, we can't do that under any circumstances, we won't be taken seriously, we'll be like the old-fashioned sentence masters who know better, right? So in that respect, that didn't happen, and in that respect, the whole project was put on hold. We wanted to ambitiously create maxims for textbook design, which is important for the design. We summarized them in bullet points, but then didn't elaborate on them any further.
[17:13]  Interviewer: What would be the first point where you would say, we need this, so that would be our first maxim, if that were the case, what would it have been?
[17:27] Gorbach: What I said earlier, right? The basics of readability, like continuous text, as it used to be called, how it's structured. That's spacing. Those are the spaces, those are very classic things. And always, of course, seeing how it looks on the screen? That's where I'm still a bit, I have more possibilities, more freedom, and of course more misfortune.
[17:56]  Interviewer: See the examples I just showed you, how to.
[18:00] Gorbach: It looks like that, but it's terrible. And then it just goes on, not about clear hierarchies, not about fashion, not about the designer who wants to be the center of attention, but about them actually working well. Hierarchies of headings and individual elements, i.e., everything else that occurs. With knowledgeable readers, you can do a lot, you can work with marginalia and second levels. That would actually be a great opportunity for didactic texts.
[18:41]  Interviewer: Yes, I agree. So we have two maxims right now. That would be the principle of readability, right? And hierarchy. In the sense of headlines, not a wild design, but rather a leading one.
[19:07] Gorbach: What's perhaps crazy is that today, book design is already starting to require every novel to have two fonts. One for the text and another for the headings. Completely unnecessary. Most of the time, right? Because fonts are so well developed, even a normal font that isn't B yet works so well that you can actually work with it wonderfully. But it's almost like a certified fashion trend at the moment that you have to do a font mix right away because it's so easy to do. The problem is that in the past, it was a lot of work, so people didn't do it.
[19:50]  Interviewer: Yes, and what would be a third maxim?
[19:57] Gorbach: A third maxim would be the requirement that you actually know about pleasing proportions. That's not so obvious in our industry. People talk about the golden ratio, which is certainly very important, but what I strongly advocate is that a system of proportions be used overall, and not just the margins, but of course no one checks this, but there is a system of proportions that can be used. There is a system and thus harmony.
[20:43]  Interviewer: So grid systems or what are proportion systems for you?
[20:47] Gorbach: Grid systems are part of it, but proportion alone is the measurement chain that you use. But now you've come across someone who has researched this particularly intensively and has also worked it out.
[21:04]  Interviewer: Yes, that's why I asked. That's good. So that means there is such a thing as the golden ratio, right?
[21:17] Gorbach: There is a golden ratio, but there are 12, actually 12 proven proportion systems. It doesn't have to be the golden ratio. What are two to three, for example? Ah, yes, okay. Very classic, then the root proportion, how the DIN formats were created to see the three most important ones in portrait formats. And then, of course, there's picture books or landscape formats or even screens. You could work with that, you could make something out of it. Those are interesting basic ratios, aspect ratios. And then to use that and continue with it, that's where I've seduced a generation of designers into thinking about proportions.
[22:13]  Interviewer: Yes, now I understand. She had to understand first. Yes, those would be three maxims that are actually quite sufficient to start with.
[22:26] Gorbach: Those are the most important ones for now. The other thing is what we can switch around, what we can do digitally. It's just fantastic what you can do there. And I really enjoyed that in a scientific project where we were able to implement good typography. That was in the Hitler Mein Kampf edition. We were able to take the ideas we had in print and expand them enormously for the digital edition, of course, for the scientific work. Fantastic. It turned out really well.
[23:12]  Interviewer: I can understand that. So that's where we would then. It's like the rule of three or the basic principles of readability, hierarchy and arrangement, proportion.
[23:28] Gorbach: Those are the three basics with which you could already achieve and explore a great deal.
[23:38]  Interviewer: And if I ask again, would you say there is evidence where one could say, yes, there are such frameworks, so one could refer to them when it comes to principles, where one says, these are the standard works, one simply has to refer to them, right? There is quantitative research that has investigated this.
[24:11] Gorbach: Research always makes it difficult, doesn't it? There are people who have compiled something, there are many typography books, but the focus is always on fonts, typography, and then it doesn't really go any further. Then it often becomes very artistic. And one book that has caught my attention in recent years in typography, really in terms of layout, which is my great passion, and... Wait a minute, I'll move away from the picture, then I can... OK, that's better. That's less of a problem now.
[25:11]  Interviewer: Ah yes, do you know it?
[25:14] Gorbach: Yes, well, that's something.
[25:17]  Interviewer: But that's it.
[25:20] Gorbach: That's just the design now. It's not scientifically systematic, but it has absorbed a lot and has actually taken typographic design very seriously. That's my opinion. There's a French author whom I also take very seriously, but otherwise that hasn't really happened since Wilberg. My own book is something completely different. It was a commission for the digital world. We wanted to seduce the digital world into typography. And that was the background to it.
[26:03]  Interviewer: Yes, I think so. So you mean legible?
[26:06] Gorbach: No, typography. It was intense.
[26:17]  Interviewer: Yes, so unfortunately you confirm my assumption that there are few things you can refer to when, let's say, the Swiss say, "I can feel it" or "it comes from a feeling."
[26:31] Gorbach: Yes, exactly, my co-editor of the book on easy language is currently working on a dissertation about the importance of typography and design for easy language, and Bessermann in Liège, Brussels, is also working on this, of course. But again and again, the focus is on disabilities and inclusion, etc. About design and typography.
[27:12]  Interviewer: Is that easy language?
[27:14] Gorbach: It's easy language, but for her, of course, it's generally about the limitations for groups that simply have a disability in thinking or seeing.
[27:35]  Interviewer: I'm assuming. I almost said standard, which I don't consider standard at all, but I'm trying to cover most of it.
[27:49] Gorbach: So-called normality.
[27:51]  Interviewer: Yes, I can emphasize that, but we know what is meant by this impairment for the majority, and I have also written a work on impairment, and we work a lot with a professor who perhaps goes a little more into technoid stories, who is primarily concerned with the issue of small minorities. And perhaps also interesting, a really interesting person, his name is Oliver Bendel. Should I send the name Bendel? I can send the link right now, but perhaps it would also be interesting for your colleague to refer to my name. He wonders, for example, how language works here in Switzerland, where there are dead languages or languages and dialects that are no longer in use, and how artificial intelligence can be used to bring them back to life. But he also wonders how technology can be used to ensure accessibility. And he is a machine ethicist at the University of Applied Sciences and Arts Northwestern Switzerland. So I'm always networking. He's a really exciting guy when it comes to this.
[29:34] Gorbach: These are topics that we encounter very frequently, in fact constantly, and which are also very topical.
[29:44]  Interviewer: I think language is. How do you make it accessible? Or that is, before we just evaporate into visual language. That's just a little digression. So, easy language is less my topic, but it's an interesting field to look into. What I noticed at the ZHdK, the Zurich University of the Arts, is that people refer to feelings and sometimes forget that quantity is also important in academia. But no one wants to do quantitative research in the design disciplines. Exactly. And that's where I would like to do my part, and I'm now working on my interviews, because I can see that it's already quarter past, so half an hour has gone by quickly. But it was very, well, I wrote a lot and also recorded what I'm doing now. I'm listening a lot now. Unfortunately, or thankfully, I've noticed that there's simply not much research being done on this, especially from a well-founded design perspective. So there's a lot that's being examined by psychologists on the other side, like how does red compare to green? Things like that.