Transcript Interview: 
Christine Gertsch (Swiss typographer, professor, and head of the Typography and Type Design program at the Zurich University of the Arts)

Questions:
Which typographic elements in digital interfaces could promote learning?
Are you aware of any empirical evidence supporting the influence of typographic elements on learning effectiveness?
How can typographic principles be designed in digital learning technologies to be aesthetically appealing, meaningful, and credible, thereby promoting sustainable learning?
Would you be interested in contributing to a study on this topic through feedback or expertise?


Transcript

[07:20] Interviewer : Yes, exactly. And then I sent you the questions. Which typographic elements in digital interfaces can promote learning? That's a huge question, of course, right? But that's the question I've posed as a research question.
[07:40] Christine Gertsch: Yes, well, I would have a counter-question, namely what is it that should be learned or practiced? Because there are so many different types of content. For example, it could be about reading comprehension, in which case the topic of font and font legibility would be very central, I think. Or it could be about a scientific topic or math, right? These are very different types of content that are perceived differently. And I would say that in typographic design, you first have to be clear about that. So first consider what the task of typography is here. Perhaps you are familiar with the book by Wilberg and Forsmann, Lesetypographie, in which they distinguish between selective reading, linear reading, and activating reading. In this context, I would first look at what the task of the content is. Should you be able to concentrate fully on the text and work on the content? Then this and that would have to be fulfilled in order for it to be conducive to learning. Then you could go in there and choose the font, contrast, i.e., is it a white background and completely black, or is it more of a broken gray tone? Things like that, which are very much aimed at perception and readability. And if it's a topic where a lot more connections are shown, then maybe I would imagine a teaching aid and then you would have a box with information or you would have a formula and it would be more about bringing elements together. For us, it's more about understanding individual things. Then it was perhaps more about contrasts, about weighting and also about being able to understand the sequence of thoughts. So what is the big picture? And then you might go into more detail or ask yourself what trains of thought do I need to follow and how can I follow them? And of course, the typography should not be confusing, but should support the reader in following these trains of thought. That would then be more of a structuring level. And then, of course, there is activating typography, where things are highlighted. Here, it's also about the typography perhaps having something to do with the content, not just using Times, but also choosing a font and using it in a way that fits the theme. So that's how I would answer. You can't give one answer, you have to differentiate first.
[11:27]  Interviewer : Well, you're already almost classifying it, you say contrast, structure, font choice, and then there's also a perception aspect that we can discuss again. Perception in the sense of what the text is trying to say, what the recipient takes in, right?
[11:50] Christine Gertsch: Yes.
[11:54]  Interviewer : So content, effect.
[12:01] Christine Gertsch: Exactly, effect. And I would also say that motivation is extremely important, especially in learning environments. In other words, it should be appealing, it should be a design that invites and activates and arouses curiosity.
[12:20]  Interviewer : That's almost related to perception. So if you say that it's like, maybe you could even say that structure is content. So you could choose subcategories again. Then we would have perception, font choice, structure, and contrast. Although font choice goes back to perception or structure. Then you would have three categories that you find conducive to learning. And this motivation is what I really want to examine with this emotional design, right? How do I feel comfortable in these environments, that they are conducive to learning?
[13:07] Christine Gertsch: When it comes to motivation, I would also say that focus is really important, especially in digital environments, right? That you're not easily distracted and have the opportunity to somehow leave the environment or get too bogged down, that your attention is held and constantly renewed.
[13:36]  Interviewer : Yes, that's an interesting point.
[13:42] Christine Gertsch: I read an exciting book by Wolf, that's her last name, I don't remember her first name. Marian. Marian Wolf. I think she's American. She also has, well, these are research findings, she researches reading and the brain, i.e., what processes happen in the brain? And there's an older book by her where she describes the whole process of reading, from perception, i.e., the eye, i.e., the physical aspects of the eye, and then the connections to the brain, what is activated there? Language, visual perception, I can't even list everything, but there are many areas and they are activated in different ways one after the other. And then the second book, which I find even more interesting, she compared what happens during what she calls slow reading and fast reading, or rather, I would say, deep reading and superficial reading. And she was able to show that much less happens in the brain during superficial reading. So when you quickly scroll through a message on your phone, then Facebook, blah, blah, blah, just jumping around like that and only scratching the surface everywhere, much less is processed in the brain. On the other hand, when you immerse yourself in a text for a longer period of time, which often happens when you read a book or a novel, for example, when you forget the world around you, but it could also happen digitally, then a lot of empathy is generated, promoted, or trained, activated in the brain, language, memory, and so on. And I found that very exciting. It goes a little beyond your topic, but.
[15:58]  Interviewer : Yes, and I have to say, I just googled it, it was probably the book Reader Come Home.
[16:05] Christine Gertsch: That might be the English title; I think the German title is Fast Reading, Slow Reading.
[16:11]  Interviewer : Aha, okay. So I found that on Wikipedia, maybe it's also there, I...
[16:19] Christine Gertsch: I think it's in the Peha library. I think I got it from there.
[16:27]  Interviewer : Yes, because the books before that have different titles, right? It's probably The Reading Brain in the Digital World from 2018.
[16:37] Christine Gertsch: Yes, I think that's it.
[16:39]  Interviewer : Could be, could be, it sounds kind of like what you just described. And you really have to say that there's a lot of research on this whole reading habit. So I'll definitely include it. That sounds pretty exciting, also because I'm always looking for people who have researched something similar. And there's a lot of research on this in psychology, or in aesthetics, where I'm looking for people who argue from a real expertise in design, on a quantitative level and not on a qualitative one. So, that they do.
[17:24] Christine Gertsch: Well, the person I know who is really doing research is Sophie Bayer in Denmark, but she focuses very strongly on legibility.
[17:39]  Interviewer : Yes, yes, there's a lot there, there really is.
[17:42] Christine Gertsch: But it's also visual.
[17:44]  Interviewer : Yes, yes, Adobe also does some great research on fonts when it comes to legibility. So there is that, but there is also, well, I was talking to a German, German-speaking or German curryphe for didactic typography yesterday and he said, yes, they are also at conferences and research units and they have few arguments from quantitative research.
[18:21] Christine Gertsch: Okay, so there's still work to be done.
[18:24]  Interviewer : There is work to be done, yes. And especially then, especially then as an argument for designers, right? So there's also a lack of arguments on their part, not just that we've always done it this way and that's why it's right, but it's also right because research says so, even if I don't always agree with that, because I think that if you've been doing it this way since the advent of printing, it has a cultural impact and its justification, right? But not in academia. This Sofi Burg.
[19:06] Christine Gertsch: With an "e."
[19:12]  Interviewer : Where is she from?
[19:13] Christine Gertsch: You said Denmark. I think she's in Copenhagen.
[19:20]  Interviewer : And what does she do? Oh, right.
[19:25] Christine Gertsch: Legibility in general and then also perception of writing and legibility for people with disabilities, i.e., with impaired vision.
[19:41]  Interviewer : Yes, exciting. Yes, because the German association lesbar, I don't know if you know them, they're also looking for that right now.
[19:53] Christine Gertsch: They're working on it right now, so you probably know the book lesbar.
[20:00]  Interviewer : Exactly, I spoke to him yesterday, I spoke to Gorbach on the phone yesterday, or rather, we had a long conversation. And he's also interested in, like, they're currently developing five models with typographical foundations and would like to... And we're currently discussing whether I should review the models, meaning that I wouldn't design them myself, but that I might take over their models and review them. So it would be exciting for me too, right? But it would be. Yes, but then you'd have the right book in your hands.
[20:40] Christine Gertsch: Exactly, I just wanted to say that I haven't looked into it myself yet, but if no studies are cited, then I wouldn't know either. So that would have been my first point, to check with the individual authors again.
[20:56]  Interviewer : Exactly, so I have, there's the one that comes from physics, so there's a quantitative study that's also very neatly presented in the book, but it's also about the structure of the general and not the digital. And I'm talking specifically about the digital again, because that has a different aesthetic, right?
[21:24] Christine Gertsch: Yes, although I would assume that very similar mechanisms are at work.
[21:30]  Interviewer : Yes, that's what I'm saying, but I can also show you examples of learning environments that are currently being used at the university, the PH, and the ZHDK, including Moodle, which you have. Some of them have really difficult typographical approaches, where we use Ilias and they refuse to address the typography because they say it has no impact.
[22:05] Christine Gertsch: Okay.
[22:06]  Interviewer : And because, well, you can talk yourself hoarse, but if you had a document here, look, we've done four studies, all of which show a massive difference in learning effectiveness. If you use smart typography, then at some point they just can't do it anymore, that's nonsense. So you know, but there isn't any. So you're right, it hasn't been proven, but I don't know yet how far I'll get with the study. But that would be the question. Okay, so then the next question I want to ask you is: Do you know of any empirical evidence that supports the influence of typographic elements on learning effectiveness? You just showed me the book.
[22:52] Christine Gertsch: Yes.
[22:53]  Interviewer : And you don't know of anything else?
[22:57] Christine Gertsch: No, at most you could look at Forsman, but that wouldn't be digital, and I don't think he did any research. I just don't know. You could check again to see if he conducted any research studies himself or cited any somewhere. Yes, but it probably wouldn't focus on digital media.
[23:30]  Interviewer : And I completely agree with you, but then you would have. I also see that good typography on paper has the same mechanisms on screen, but that hasn't been verified either. And then. But then you would have an approach, but even that is missing a bit for me. And, as I said, there are some qualitative debates about it. There are various books, but there are no evidence-based studies, which nobody really cares about. Only when there is such a mixed situation. So who actually cares about which typographer? But then it's missing from the discourse, right?
[24:14] Christine Gertsch: Yes, and in principle, it should be the teachers who are not typographers but teach other subjects and produce their own content who should be interested in it.
[24:28]  Interviewer : Yes, and they're not interested either, because there's no reason to be, on a universal, academic level, really, so yes. Yes, I mean, I don't have that either right now. But I'll have to look into it. As I said, I don't have huge expectations. I'll just start with these interviews I have and dig through them. So if 10 experts tell me that there's a book by Lesbar or that there's only quantitative, well-intentioned research on the subject, then at some point I can say to myself, okay, there isn't any, and that's where I am right now.