Transcript Interview: 
Julia Kahl (German designer and professor at FH Mainz). She is also the co-founder of Slanted Publishers, a media and publishing platform that specializes in typography and contemporary design. 
	
Questions:
Which typographic elements in digital interfaces could promote learning?
Are you aware of any empirical evidence supporting the influence of typographic elements on learning effectiveness?
How can typographic principles be designed in digital learning technologies to be aesthetically appealing, meaningful, and credible, thereby promoting sustainable learning?
Would you be interested in contributing to a study on this topic through feedback or expertise?



Transcript

[10:06] Julia Kahl: I'm already somewhat familiar with these systems. They always look terrible and no one wants to work with them.
[10:14]  Interviewer: Exactly. And that's exactly the point I've been trying to make, but now you understand what it's all about, right? With my background in typography, I'd like to use this aesthetic and test whether it really does improve learning. I'd like to conduct tests to investigate the importance of typography in teaching.
 Because, as a side note, we are the co-developers of this interface at the PH Zurich, where I am right now, and they refuse to look at it from a typographical point of view. I mean, nobody wants to read that, but that's our pain, right? You immediately share that with me. And we could, if you look at it so fundamentally, and the thing is, because they say it's not proven that typography really works. So there are many qualitative studies, but no one wants to do basic research on the effect of fonts.
[11:32] Julia Kahl: But there is already some, right?
[11:35]  Interviewer: But not on a quantitative level.
[11:39] Julia Kahl: Ah, OK.
[11:40]  Interviewer: So what you have are lots of studies—Adobe does a lot of studies, too—but not so much on learning. So there are many studies on the effect of fonts, but also more on...
[11:56] Julia Kahl: Stories, but not... Can you learn better as a result?
[12:00]  Interviewer: Exactly, so you actually have, well, there are some studies that look at how pages are structured, and that's usually never a bad thing, right? That you have this kind of content here and this kind of navigation level here and so on. So when you look at design principles, it's mostly really about the design of the website, but not about the aesthetics of the website or the learning environment. And when it comes to typography, there's a complete void. And in the last, I would say four years, six years, four, wait a minute, 2020 is when the coronavirus research started, and 2021 is when this AI research in teaching started. And the latest research on typography or digital interfaces in general is from 2019, when a completely different technology was still possible. So there is a relative void in this segment in terms of design, i.e., aesthetic principles in the sense of typography in learning environments, digital learning environments. And because I don't want to make a name for myself as a researcher, but rather do this Dr. Aus for interest and career reasons, I'm getting involved in this field, so to speak, because I don't really need this research for my resume, you know? And I could actually make a difference somewhere with this small study, for example, by taking the study results on these learning platforms and saying, here it is in black and white. Typography promotes good learning success. Okay, I'll stop sharing this image now, lest we get dizzy. So now there are two questions, right? First of all, do you have anything? If you don't have another question about that.
[14:30] Julia Kahl: No, I think I understand what it's about.
[14:34]  Interviewer: Well, I could have structured it a little better, but I think the message is clear, right? So the question of typography in learning environments to achieve a good balance in cognitive load, that's it, right?
 And that's what's called application-oriented basic research. Application-oriented because it also takes place in a real environment, right? And it's basic because you're researching fundamentals that are based on theories. And now the question for you, first question. You're a thoroughbred typographer, you know? So I'm also doing some literature research. If you really know of something where you would say, you have to look at that, that's an important field where a lot of research is happening or a lot of discourse is happening on the topic of how typeface works, then I would of course be very grateful if you could give me a tip. So, yes, that's one thing. And then, of course, there's the question, I'm starting now, that I have a graphic designer who would also design that for me, design an interface where typography is more prominent. The question for me is whether you could say from your perspective that you could imagine these are fonts that could be particularly conducive to learning because they are particularly easy to read. Or there's also the question of sensemaking, that there's a theory, confirmed empirically, that when you give meaning to a design, it has a better effect on people. So if you've thought through a design, then it will also be better accepted as an authority on the other side than a design where people feel a bit duped or where there's little basis for it. So.
[17:07] Julia Kahl: Yes, so to your first question, how does typeface work and whether I know anything I can tell you about it. Actually, I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but there are definitely books that deal with the effect of fonts. Of course, this is also something that is taught in the basics. Basically, a blackletter font has a different effect than a sans serif font. There are readability studies that have basically concluded that serif fonts are generally more readable than sans serif fonts. However, there are also sans serif fonts that have been designed to be particularly easy to read, based on these readability studies. I can't think of anything specific off the top of my head, I'd have to look it up myself, but I definitely saw a lecture on these readability studies and it was really interesting, because it also leads to how well you absorb a text, i.e. how you can absorb the content if you don't let yourself be distracted too much by the form of a font, but rather the font helps you to absorb the knowledge more easily, so to speak.
[19:06]  Interviewer: Yes, exactly.
[19:09] Julia Kahl: I believe in Bessemer. I'll have to look that up again, but I'll find out.
[19:18]  Interviewer: So there's also the effect of book type, and that's definitely a basis I'll be referring to. Although my typographical knowledge is a bit outdated now, isn't it? And I don't know what the latest is, so that's why I'm asking you, if you're there.

[19:41] Julia Kahl: I can definitely look into it, I'm sure I'll find something. And then there was something recently, I don't know if it's too far removed from Type Together, we presented it, I'll have to take a quick look at the landing page.
[20:04]  Interviewer: Great.
[20:08] Julia Kahl: They've launched a research project, so to speak. Okay, I'm sure I'll find it quickly. And they have cursive scripts as they are taught in schools in different countries.
[20:30]  Interviewer: Funny.
[20:35] Julia Kahl: What was the name of this project? S. I think I've got it. Primarium. Right, I'll send you the website. So it's basically about different cursive scripts from different countries. It's more about the form and finding a platform for it, because it's taught differently in every country. So there are massive differences. And I also find it quite interesting that in Finland, for example, they actually teach a grotesque font, a block font, as handwriting, whereas in Germany you learn classic cursive, as in other countries. But these basic fonts sometimes differ greatly from one another. So maybe it's too far-fetched now, but I think that's basically where it starts, the effect that writing has on people, how you've been shaped by writing. I don't know to what extent that might also play a role, that a type of writing can have different effects because something else was simply imprinted in early childhood.
[22:35]  Interviewer: Yes, that ties in a bit with sense making. I've also wondered why all scientific papers are written in Times New Rome, right? They're all in Times New Rome, aren't they? Yes, but that's one reason why it should be done. But it's a good question whether the font also conveys that it's important or correct. And in the examples I showed you, that learning platform, they're all set in terrible fonts. And if, for example, you were to bring the academic level up to a standard that was also visible in the font, it would somehow reinforce the credibility of the content. And that's why I think the question is, maybe there is a font that is particularly academic without being too... Well, maybe kindergarten or... Well, Primarium, but maybe there is a university font that could be used for learning management systems where people don't... Where it would convey credibility.
[24:08] Julia Kahl: Yes, I mean, you can also say quite clearly that it's for a specific... Well, it's actually made for a specific reader group. The majority of those who use this platform are probably in their early 20s, right? So maybe it's also something that has a bit of a fashion influence, that somehow captures the spirit of the times? Come on, it can. I'm just talking off the top of my head.
[24:55]  Interviewer: Yes, absolutely.
[24:57] Julia Kahl: Does it have something to do with fashion and the zeitgeist and with generations, too, that you say you adapt it to a certain age group?
[25:12]  Interviewer: Exactly.

[25:15] Julia Kahl: Are you familiar with the book Typography in Knowledge Transfer?
[25:19]  Interviewer: No. See, who's asking? Typography.
[25:24] Julia Kahl: Exactly, that's because it's relatively new. Typography in Knowledge Transfer, published by Triest Verlag. Oh, we've already presented it. I presented it, it's from 2020.
[25:43]  Interviewer: Yes, but those are. I think that's where the basics or even research ends at the moment, because everyone is just chasing after AI. It's crazy. If you look around, you can't really find anything else.
[25:59] Julia Kahl: Yes, that's true. That's really true. I'm in the process of doing that right now. Of course, I've taught basic typography before, but now I want to do it again in Mainz. I want to refresh my knowledge because it's been four years since I last did it. And I have a lot of literature, of course, lots of typography books and stuff, but it's not that easy to find the right one. And I find that in many books, it's just not that appealing. But here in this book, it definitely works. For example, it was designed by Rudolf Paulus Gorbach, whom I know. He's probably in his mid-70s, maybe even 80, so he's a very old topographer, very old school, a superman. But of course, it's clear that nothing else could come out of it. It's just very classic. In terms of design, that is.
[27:07]  Interviewer: But he makes it historical, which I find exciting, so I definitely have to get it. That's a great tip. And maybe you could. And as I said, a lot of it is historical, right? That you're working through history, where does the letter come from? And then there's also the anecdote with the grotesque, that it's called grotesque because it doesn't run on serifs, right? So those are historical observations. The problem with science is that there is no empirical evidence, no quantitative empirical evidence, you know, a comparative study, is it really better to have a serif font when learning, you know, you still have to learn from it, and that's why I'm definitely going to take a look at it. That's a great tip, it looks promising. Yes, so there are two very interesting ones, a bit of credibility and zeitgeist, I'll call it that, yes, so target levels, right? Yes, that would be an interesting point. And that's where we are now, I mean, you could also consider this credibility and zeitgeist, or just zeitgeist, at the expert level, right? So how do I convey these basics to typographers?
[28:55] Julia Kahl: You'll have to repeat the second question, I've forgotten it again.
[29:01]  Interviewer: Yes, the first one was whether you know anything literary, studies, apart from those reading studies, which are really good, right? I think Adobe has invested quite a lot in that. Actually, the second question is, when you see things like I just showed you, where would you say, but you've already answered that, where could improvements be made, or is there a font that is particularly helpful for learning?
 But you've already given a good indication of typography in knowledge transfer, and also with Primarium. Just the question of whether you still have reduction, i.e., if we now change a segment, i.e., if you would tell me, if you would tell me now that if you changed that, I would share it again, or have it in front of my eyes again, that it was Elias.
[30:16] Julia Kahl: Now, the last thing you had open.
[30:17]  Interviewer: Elias can, exactly, yes, that's Elias. So we can also look at Elias, right? So that's it in the end.
[30:27] Julia Kahl: I think so, yes, I think it's basically very simple things. Things like not having such wide columns, but that it would certainly be much more accessible if there were perhaps two columns. So, starting there, you said that you want to reduce different font sizes to a minimum. That's something you learn in typography, that reducing things calms the eye and helps you to perceive the essentials better. So, again, the topic of knowledge transfer. The absorption of information, colors, let's say. Yes, contrasts too. So the gray value, that's something that probably makes for good typography in the end. It can't be too detailed, it has to be generous in some way, and you also have to be able to navigate it, of course. This ease of navigation is also something that is very closely linked to the age group you are addressing and the time you are living in, because, as you said, an incredible number of things have changed technically in the last four years. So it has picked up a lot more speed, as digitization processes have advanced. And that also has an impact on society, I would say. So I think the speed at which a person can somehow absorb such changes and such new processes has a lot to do with age.
[32:43]  Interviewer: Exactly.
[32:46] Julia Kahl: Which generation do you belong to? And then there's that, and I believe that these things, i.e., what we've learned and what we take for granted, absolutely must be incorporated into such a design so that it becomes as accessible as possible.
[33:02]  Interviewer: Yes, it's interesting that you bring up speed, taking things for granted, and generation.
[33:18] Julia Kahl: Yes, I think our children are the best examples of this, aren't they? When I sometimes watch Theo, I see how naturally he can use all kinds of different video game consoles, even ones he's never held before, and he immediately figures out how they work.
[33:42]  Interviewer: Would you say that's an old system?
[33:45] Julia Kahl: It's an old system, yes, I would say so.
[33:48]  Interviewer: We both know that, right? But could you say why, I mean, could you?