Transcript Workshop: DELTA colloquium in May 2025 at the University of Zurich, students and professors Speaker 1 00:01 It's only a record audio record, so no pictures I will use and I will inform you if we do something with this afterwards. So I have to check this. So before I want to start, I have some basic information about me that you know who talking and you know. Where I come from. So my background is communication design, so I do have a master in communication design and in pedagogy. I worked internationally in digital focused design agencies, so I made most of the time web designs and interaction designs. I headed the E learning department HDK, this is University for the Arts in Zurich. Until last year I teach UX in education, whatever that is interaction design and typography and design basics. I'm now a researcher here with Sasha in the learning technologies since twenty twenty three and now since two thousand since this. Year I had the digital learning center at the PHZH. I think that is correct the English term for that. So this is my background. So I will bring more or less my perspective into the project from both sides, from the visual communication part or the communication part and the pedagogy part. I worked a lot. I worked a lot in design, so my main perspective in the first place is from the design perspective and today I will also ask you later on some question about the education science. This is the background and this is the area where I work at the PHP part Centaur and this is our learning management system. It is ILIAS. I mean, if I would present you a picture of OLAT, it wouldn't look different. So as you see for graphic designer it is a little bit undesigned or under designed I would say. And this is not the first time that I see something undesigned in the educational area like this it's quite often or quite common that environments for learning look a little bit underdesigned. So this is since years also at the Zharika my topic. And that's why I also met Sasha in this discipline to discuss this pain I have every day. But yeah, what I did or what Tino and I did the last half year we did. Literature studies or we read books, we had interviews and we started a transfer from the design From the Design Discipline to Educational. Science. So that what we do and we created a theory paper with this knowledge, with these interviews and also with a transdisciplinary framework Later on I will show you this literature, we read books as I said, but there are a lot of pictures in this book. So we looked at the designs and what experts in these fields said. You see didactic typography which is close to the English term didactic typography, which is a very interesting book. I found which frames didactic in typography and then you see the Swiss traditional Erste Hilfe in Typographie, which means first aid in typography, which you will read in the first semester of the Grafica EFZ ausbildung. So this is very important for design education and then the typographische komposition. This is a new composing of the topic how can I use typography in print media and in digital media? As well there are five sites pages to that topic actually so the digital area is always a bit under represented. And then we read lesbar Typographie in der Wissensvermittlung from Gorbach you will hear the name another time later on. This is a really nice book about the transfer from graphic design to knowledge communication or in learning. Settings. And this is this was a little bit an eye opener for me. Also later on, I spoiler now in the interview with Gorbach, what he said about the digital environment and about the studies which are going on around this topic. So this is the books we read from this graphic design perspective. And to take you a little bit more to My topic is just a short dive into typography. It's a fundamental element of design that is very important. Without typography you miss the part of a precise convoy from knowledge to the transfer of communication. It's a very precise discipline in the design and in the learning settings. It also has a name. We saw it before it's didactic typography and it was in Germany first mentioned in the eighteen So this is to narrow it down in the typography you find two main areas, it's macro typography and microtypography and macrotypography means the layout, the whole layout, the environment where you're in the choice of materials in the digital, the surface in the printed area, the paper as well, fonts, colors, composion, etc.. And in the microtypography area you find. Finer details in the words or in the typeface. What is that in the type of picture, whatever. And you find areas between the letters and as well. So microtypography is not well mentioned in the typography area. Also in theory in Macrotypography we also read readability, which is an area which is fine. Also in the science area. And I take the idea from Wilberg Forsman. They said the first time or they clustered the first time like this. So what we did is not to make it big as hell. We focus on microtypography elements. So we narrow down from the word typography we narrow down to microtypography elements and you here see where maybe also the elements come from. This is a little letter from the Pleitrok. Yeah, Pleitrok, maybe you don't understand it in English. It's I missed the word. So there from we have the letter now I want to present you the interviews. We or the people who we talk about to it is Gorbach, which I mentioned already. He is an author and typographer in the lecture and he coordinates the international working group lesbar. Typographie in der Wissensvermittlung and he mentioned in the interviews mainly typographic emphasis, text structures and hierarchy. These are the main interest rates of him. Julia Kahl is a German designer, professor and co founder of Slanted Publishers, which is a media and publishing platform specially for typography and new media. It's very contemporary, they do a lot of modern stuff and high end evil. And she mentioned typefaces, choice, generational imprinting, consistence and usability in typography. And then at last I talked to Christine Gertsch, which is a Swiss typographer and professor and head of the Typography and Type Design program at the ZHDK with a special focus on digital type. So I have a good mixture between print and digital as well. And she mentioned white spaces, line spaces, motivational cues in typography. So these are the outcomes in very short from the interviews and what we now did. We did kind of a transfer. And maybe, this is also a discussion area, maybe you have other ideas and I'm very curious to listen to them. So we clustered it in the first time. The motivations of the people, motivation, motivation, cues in typography, cognitive elements like typography, emphasis, white space, line spaces, text structures, hieracracy, metacognitive elements, like typefaces, choice, generational imprinting, consistence and usability in typography. So this is, we clustered it a bit in these areas. And then we made a frame framework. We took the microtypography elements. I think I never said typography so often like today. But these elements we put on the left. We matched them with the literature and the interviews and put them or clustered them a little bit. And then we had a transfer to educational theories and to experimental ideas, what we can do with these elements. And now what we are going to do with these results. Our next steps are. We have this paper, which I mentioned before. It's a good paper about the method and discussion how we can further on with this framework. I mentioned already And then we have these, as I said, these clustering of the typographic elements and now we want to experiment three. I don't know how much, but I said three is a good number and then we want to do scientific papers. That is, I would say the academic path we have, also I'm in a head situation at the PHZ, so I have the bigger aim to change also some LMS systems with this approach, but this is more or less another aim, but this is my aim to do now. So maybe you saw it already the interesting part for you I deleted so as Sasha said, what I didn't put or what I didn't show to you right now IS. The Educational Theory Transfer and the experiment ideas and that has a purpose because, because I want, because we have so much time, I want to discuss these areas with you, if they, and later on I want to match them with my or with our ideas. And yeah, that is what we can do right now. I said, I'm always super quick when I speak English, because I lose all the nice words which I have in German. So I had fifteen minutes. That's not that much, so we have time, but I have two key questions. The first key question is, where could we publish or where can this be published? And the second question is, which I showed here I have the this also in a printed area. I have that also on the digital which we can discuss right now and you can make your notes. The question is, what is your idea to connect these educational theories and what are your experimental ideas? And now I stop because I guess there are some questions. Speaker 2 14:52 Can you talk a bit more about this? No, not the elements that you show here you didn't talk too much about what each of the elements means. Speaker 1 15:02 Yeah, that is very interesting. Thaya emphasis is to make it bold to underline, to make it cursive italic. These are the very low level which I can use. It's low level line spacing and white spacing is how much space I give around the letters in letter meaning and also in the layout, but not in a layout meaning it's more how much white space I do have around text structure and hierarchy hierarchy? Thank you is to where. For example in the written or in books I also have a column where I also have information next to the main text and in the digital sphere we do have links and pictures next or interactive design. So I can use this text structure also in a multi or interactive design, but also heading, it's also structure in the text, for example one, two, three so bullet points. This is also hierarchy, typeface and usability in typography. No, did I jump? Yes, typeface choice, generational imprinting. This means, typeface choice is also it's a mixture between microtypography and macro typography. It is which type I use, typeface I use and is the typeface linked to the generational need. So there is a difference, Julia Kahl mentioned quite well that there is a difference between older and younger generation and there's also a lot of studies about readability and a lot of studies about the serifs. For example, if they, if you, but it's another step, but you see it good and consistence and usability in typography is do we have a mixture of types, type faces do we have a clear structure from the type. Which type is which type? Typeface is this? I don't say what I would do with educational theories, but I think you have an image in Mind or Theory in Mind and Motivational Cups. In typography. That is also quite good linked with generational imprinting. Some types do interact with me without interacting. For example we write all papers in Thompson Roman. This type already has a kind of motivation for me, because I know, OK I see Thompson Roman, I know now I read a scientific paper, so that is the motivation and more. So this is yeah, yeah. Speaker 3 18:40 Yes, yeah, okay, I have two questions actually. First question, why do you call it didactic typography? I was not sure about the term didactic, because didactics is something that is in use in German and Nordic contexts exclusively so in the US you will rarely find the term didactic and it's oftentimes more of the liker, a problematic word in old fashioned pedagogy, which is rather outdated. So I would avoid this term. If you look at the German tradition of didactics, I'm a professor of didactics. I don't call myself didactics in English, because it's misleading. Didactics in German tradition is more about the planning of learning goals about educational objectives, about the selection of teaching content and that's the didactics and methods, teaching methods, the methodology. That's what you actually do in teaching. It's a different thing. So I was wondering whether the term didactic is a good one here or whether you should refer it to like educational typography something more neutral. This was something I was thinking that's question one. Question two is, if I look at your points here on the slide, I can see two different things. One thing is rather like the reading research, the things you refer to like is it perceptible, is it better when you have a little more line spacing? Is it can you do all this leading research that also does like eye tracking? They compare typically they compare different texts in different layouts for one column versus two columns like smaller columns or more line spacing, less line spacing, a bit more kerning between the letters or less kerning and there are minutes studies comparing these things and then you can analyze like reading, performance, reading comprehension based on these things that's like the objective measurement of things that are better perceptible for eyes. And the other thing I see on your slide is a cultural thing. I would call it visual literacy. So if you do layout for a text in a certain way, but your text looks like toothpaste page advertising already go out. Speaker 4 21:26 Into what we actually want to do. Speaker 3 21:27 Everybody later, then you can see this looks like toothpaste access, like toothpaste advertising, then you will immediately associate something with it. Speaker 1 21:40 OK, maybe I didn't mention one point the idea between readability and aesthetic as also interruptional construct, because in the readability studies you say, how can I do efficiently read this text? Isn't it and I said it's not about reading, it's about studying and working with the environment I am in and I would, or my thesis, if I have a lot of ideas in my head, so my thesis is that, if you interrupt the readability and push something in, maybe you are better in learning things. And this is also, but this is an aesthetical point of view which means microtopography can do so. Speaker 3 22:37 That's interesting because that's what when you look at like from HDK, these publications of graphic designers, they're oftentimes very unusual, I would say they're not very readable, but they're supposed to be interesting and catch your interest in the flood of everything that can be read. That's something different. That's these are interesting considerations that I would follow, but you are in between of two. Speaker 1 23:06 That is true research. Speaker 3 23:07 One is very well established, which is like reading, typography, research, psychologically oriented with eye tracking and the other is aesthetics. And I'm having conversations with textbook publishers oftentimes, also here in the canton of Zurich with Cantona textbook publishers. When for schools. Speaker 1 23:35 This is always printed actually that is always another thing. Instead of interaction now they have lots. Speaker 3 23:43 Of online content going along with the textbooks. If they decide on a design what are they looking for. It's very interesting, it's a mix of these two things. So if you look into these they invite several graphic design designers to propose visual. Language for a new textbook and then there is pitch and then they will decide on certain criteria. I think it's always very interesting to. Speaker 2 24:15 See what they're deciding that that's exactly the point where she's getting to What are the criteria that we should take into consideration? Speaker 1 24:22 That is what is really interesting. Thank you. Speaker 4 24:24 We looked a lot deep into all this psychologically driven reading research, right? And the main outcome I should set a lot of is reading time like how. Speaker 2 24:33 Quick can you read something? Speaker 4 24:34 Nothing like really like three four studies on comprehension on a comprehensional level that we would not call comprehension, but maybe fact or even like just recognition of words that you just read. And it's very interesting that we actually stopped there. Speaker 2 24:49 And also all those design suggestions. Speaker 4 24:51 They have a clear theoretical structure, but it is not backed up by empirical. Speaker 1 24:56 Evidence and the criteria from Lehrmittel Verlag. I would really I'm really interested to see them, because it's like I like that or I don't like it. And this is that a proper fundament to decide, but that is They do have yeah, okay, then I'm very curious to see them and collaborate with us. Speaker 2 25:21 So it's super easy we just can contact them Perfect We deny to collaborate by now, because it's a bit more exhausting than we thought. Speaker 5 25:32 When I read that. Preferences are shaped by a generational experience. I start to think probably those preferences are also shaped by other factors, such as cultural background, class, gender. So I wanted to ask if you consider also to integrate sociological to make it even more transition for who is more appealing. I can imagine that especially aesthetics is really bound to semantics, cultural context and probably I also ask myself how much will be the experiment, because I think it's really counter specific. Speaker 1 26:23 It's interesting. I worked international design agencies, also for India and the Chinese area and for the Netherlands and for England and for America or for the US. So I have a good I know exactly what you mean because I did it every day. And I would say there are a lot of reference to the Swiss design or Swiss typography. So there is something in the Swiss typography, which is worldwide a good standard. So yes and no, I think aesthetic. If you look at the letters, we are quite in a similar area internationally, I don't know yet. Maybe we do study about white, but I would say there is a common ground for good typography in this case. So maybe not in colors and so on, but in that I would say we would find something, but maybe the. Speaker 2 27:35 Generational effect is also this is interesting related to what kind of media this generation? Speaker 1 27:42 What do you mean? Yeah, okay, this is very just a little detour. I saw a lot of application for application forms for an open position at my position and the younger people designed for mobile phones, they don't design for paper anymore and that change design and also an aesthetical cue. So I would say there is also something. Speaker 2 28:23 I have one more question. So you separated your elements into different types of processes that they might start like cognitive processes, metacognitive. How do you come to this conclusion? Speaker 1 28:39 Yeah, therefore we need the educational theories we map to. I don't know, we have time, so I can show it later in the first step we match them with typography emphasis, with educational them, we mapped them and then we looked, okay, this is here and this is in the cognitive, this is in this cognitive area. So we and this is later on and I should only show this. Maybe that is wrong and I should delete that for this presentation as well. So yeah, that's a good question for the method. Speaker 2 29:31 Also because of the framing. I mean, you say elements there and you say elements also there and is it both elements or is that one? That process is the one, the element that is true. Why is motivation not an element? Because you just say motivation there? Speaker 1 29:47 Yeah, that is true. Speaker 2 29:48 Having some questions on the terms, but that could be at a later stage. So maybe you start with like the. Speaker 1 29:56 Interactive part, that would be nice. So I do have. I do have the QR code where you can? I'm not sure if you, yeah, for. Speaker 5 30:13 Educational theory, you mean educational psychology theory? Speaker 1 30:17 Yes, no, no specific, sorry, I mentioned it on the last slide. Yeah, that is totally true. I have this very important part. I mentioned it in the key question and I lost it. So I have here the QR code. I also have the framework, the columns with me. So you don't have to look at smart mobile phones. I also have a pen with me. So if you need a pen and then this is the question. You can match to two groups or two, two, so two people together and discuss this framework and then you can think in your group which, and this is the key question number two. Which pedagogical, physical, psychological approach are similar and where do you see key difference? So this is from your knowledge, you can discuss it, then we will you can make post its, if you are in the digital sphere, you can take one of these and take post its here. And you can write, for example, I don't know some very common theory in it, and you can write your idea for the experiment idea. So this is the idea and you have fifteen minutes to discuss it and then we discuss it together. And yeah, that is the idea what we can do now. And we can also answer questions if there are still some now good. Speaker 2 32:28 So we should do it in in Paris. Speaker 1 32:30 Yeah, so you can talk. So, ah, yes, sure, sorry, I see it works, because here are people. Speaker 4 33:28 But it works if you stand here at the front and then open up. Speaker 1 33:56 I almost think so. Speaker 4 33:57 At this point, you can feel confident, even as your mockd. What he did was actually, well, I think we can do that, so in the paper, if you have the commander, you can then do another debrief on how to structure it further. And don't forget, you wanted to say at the end that if anyone is up for it, they should definitely say so. That's definitely another good idea. It's also based on typography books and these typography books have their knowledge without it. But it goes so far away from typography. It makes something completely irrational out of typography, namely bad. And actually, this highlighting should be done differently. I think this impression, which we also make, is mainly because this learning speed is right, which is also due to the resolutions, this one. Speaker 1 35:41 It's not about eye trackers. Speaker 4 35:43 You have to set other things, for example if you are white and need a lot of space between letters and words so that you can say Eye Tracker properly. And that's where you have to come in. Speaker 1 36:02 The didactic typography only results from. Speaker 5 36:05 The book, what. Speaker 1 36:09 But that's a good hint. Speaker 4 36:10 Exactly, but you also have to pick up on that. I think you did it a bit in your paper, where you also say, hey, there are some initial works that are called didactic typography, they bring it together with education and then you make exactly this link. So I think if you like it again, especially these things, I would still give them one slide per thing, what you've done now, where you've gone through it, because they need it. If you need to do this again in an educational context, I think you can give them all one slide. That's what we do now when we write it down. Speaker 1 36:52 I also don't think it's happening radically now. Speaker 4 37:01 That will be exciting, because we have now assigned it very clearly and Sascha is of course absolutely right. Of course, it always has both. So when we talk about organizational structures here, for example, then we've had organizational theories and so on, then of course it also has something to do with metacognition. Are there intersections that we simply have to soften this a little more over time, so that we are clearer about, okay, what really has primary functions in all didactic things have secondary functions and organization is a hierarchy that is intended to facilitate mental model building. But of course it also helps with remedial learning. If I close the knowledge gap, then it helps me. If you look again in any book, you will somehow find another passage in a novel, because it doesn't have a hierarchy. But if you look in a textbook, you'll find the passage more quickly because it has this hierarchy. And that's exactly the difference that you have to open up a bit. Now it will be interesting to see what it says at the end. I'll give the gentleman a pen again. Speaker 1 38:23 Oh, yes, I can do that. I have a lipstick. Yes, yes, that's right. Don't hold anything for me. Yeah, go for it. So, why did you. Speaker 6 39:38 Measure this with metacognitive elements? I boil this coming cognitive elements. Speaker 1 39:47 We discussed it already. None of the roles you can match. You can bring them first, but this is the first perspective and then of course there are others. So you can match motivational cues also with, okay, and you got there by. Speaker 6 40:23 Looking at the interviews and what they. Speaker 1 40:24 Said. Speaker 6 40:35 Also match that with metacognitive. Speaker 1 40:38 No, this is only design ideas, this is design perspective and here we transfer into educational and this is only our area. But you can also say primary accompaniment, okay, make something. And the whole idea is to see. Speaker 6 41:17 Which typographic elements lead to better understanding of educational material. Speaker 1 41:40 From the education like. Speaker 6 41:52 It'S if you do something. Speaker 7 41:56 I think. Speaker 6 41:57 It'S more like signaling. Speaker 1 42:01 Very good In which theory? Speaker 6 42:11 Okay, because I was thinking of like psychological. Speaker 1 42:22 This is too high. This is too high. Speaker 6 42:24 Okay, which level do you want signalization? Speaker 1 42:28 Okay, yes. Speaker 6 42:45 And also if you work with here you made an example in your presentation where you said for example. Speaker 1 43:02 Do you mean Ilya's presentation? Speaker 6 43:04 No, no, I mean something that you just said. Speaker 1 43:08 I cannot remember the white face around. Speaker 6 43:12 No, it's more like a text box next to the text where you get additional information. Speaker 1 43:20 It was an example for this is something like. Yeah, okay, but I didn't, I didn't get the task. So now I'm getting so I will put. Speaker 7 44:43 Which is a. Speaker 1 44:50 Tw. Speaker 3 46:09 You say. Speaker 1 51:25 Yes, that would be good now in the end is reality. Maybe we can exchange thoughts. I think the time is over at 1340 so we have. Finished before. It's not a bad thing. So maybe we can exchange the ideas from good to foot and I am happy to hear your thoughts and I will post. Okay, new school. How does that work the we start Was you your thoughts, your ideas? Do you have something online? Or is it the first fourteen? Do you want to say something to that? Or should we? Speaker 6 55:05 Yeah, okay, sorry, I put two comments in there. Speaker 1 55:08 Ah, nice. Speaker 6 55:15 It was a bit difficult on the small form. Speaker 1 55:17 Yeah, no worries, so you have, yeah, maybe you can. Speaker 8 55:29 Of course we talked about expectancy value theory because it includes different aspects of motivation, for example effort costs. So for example importantly thought about effort costs. Another would be interested, rising interest. So I think that could be a suitable theory because you can really attach to different subcomponents motivation regarding the metal cognitive elements. We have to admit we had some hard times to connect it to the concept also of metal cognition. Actually we fought at the top line and you speak you write about supports, learner orientation. We actually fought this would suit metacognition better. So for example a clon clear structure helps you. To compare it to what's actually my learning goal? What do I want to find on this page? What is still missing? Yeah, there were more thoughts about that. And at the cognitive part we actually thought about cognitive lo so like reducing cognitive. Loads through this sign that were fit the main parts. Speaker 1 56:59 Yeah, do you have? Speaker 8 57:00 I don't know if that means it's perfect. Speaker 1 57:04 The outcome. It's perfect. And do you have an idea for an experiment? Yes, we have idea you could design. Speaker 7 57:11 A website specific micrographic elements and then. Speaker 1 57:16 Also study the effects of these elements that have on different generations. Speaker 7 57:20 Or also if you are like we had Ilya Solat if you are an instructor and you use it. Or if you're a student and you use it and you could do this positively or quantitatively. Speaker 1 57:30 Okay, thank you. Speaker 8 57:33 Maybe also on the experiment ideas. I mean, we don't sure you haven't really finished the exact variables you want to influence or to investigate. Speaker 1 57:42 No, because no. Speaker 8 57:44 So that's also why we thought it's a little bit too early to think about the experiments and you actually don't know the exact variables yet. So I think then you would in our thing be very more fruitful to come back. That's why we focus more on. Speaker 2 58:01 Thank you, me vea que no se like align with that. I mean, we talked at the more Abstract level in How Dominic and I and we thought about like more not yet. Looking at the experiment, but more like is it worth to only look at one of the aspects cognitive motivational, non cognitive? Or isn't it the sweet spot when you combine two fields like what does it mean for metacognition and cognition? And when does one balance out the other? Or when do these two? Maybe also compete with each other. Maybe it's a motivational design but it hinders cognitive effects from time to time Or it brings additional cognitive effects. Speaker 1 58:47 And. Speaker 2 58:47 Then you also have to look into what kind of theories you rely on. Speaker 8 58:54 The other one was. Speaker 2 58:56 We were also not sure on what level We should design experiments? Is it more like a very experimental psychologist experiment? Like choosing one of the typographic elements and manipulate it? Or isn't it better to look at a set of elements as a Dominic I have to sign in for that use the Word Team Visual Code that this set. Of elements transports. Like we have a visual code for every combination of Elements for different life experiences when reading. Newspapers or when looking at social media. They all have different visual codes and maybe we should extract these visual codes for of these different types of experiences that we have in our lives and see if we should compare only the visual codes, like the combinations of elements that they use, which would have a bigger field effect. Speaker 4 01:00:02 So the typographers speak exactly about that thing, speak about conditional typography, so there's a different typeset for a dictionary and there is going to be so they combine a lot of those together conditional typography terms. So I think the visual code is. Speaker 1 01:00:18 I think pretty similar, but there we have an interesting thing. I would say it's an aesthetical code. And now we have the thing with the transfer from one discipline from educational science to also the design disciplines, maybe also understanding or co-codification from two science? Areas. So I would say it's aesthetic. Speaker 2 01:00:48 It's always aesthetic. I mean, newspapers don't really look at aesthetics at all, but they rely on the same visual code for years, just because their readers know where to begin when reading the newspaper. It doesn't have to be an aesthetical code per se. Speaker 4 01:01:03 I really have means beautiful can mean. Speaker 2 01:01:07 Ugly, it also doesn't mean structuring. Speaker 1 01:01:13 I take this out and I will think about that quite. It's an interesting point. Thank you. Speaker 3 01:01:23 So the point is by experience, You have experienced certain visual or aesthetical codes that are linked to certain types of information, so you have experience like twenty minutes in newspaper, like popcorn reading, quick. Speaker 1 01:01:42 Read. Speaker 3 01:01:45 Throw it away and the other like answered, set really long reads very detailed information so on different types of so if you would design information, so first thing you would need to establish that these codes are known by the test takers. That's the first thing and how these codes are perceived by the test takers. And after doing this you could present information in different formats, like layout it in a way twenty minutes would lay out information in comparison to answer that layout and compare the same text in different layouts. Serious text a more non- Serious layout and the non- Serious text in a more serious layout and compare how this is perceived. This would establish packages of all these things, because these visual codes consist of packages of like type, face, kerning, line, spacing, layout, white space around it, where images are placed. I believe these codes might form expectations and we act upon these expectations when we approach learning material. Speaker 1 01:03:07 Yeah, this is the takeaway and also your part your inputs, I take this away and do you have in the second row next any ideas for me? Yeah, in the second one that all. Speaker 5 01:03:31 The elements are kind of regulation by others, so the designer or the text itself takes over some regulation in cognitive or also in metacognitive areas. So our question would be, or you could test if the design with these elements really takes over kind of effort for a relation, so that the reader doesn't have to suffer. Believe in text takes kind of a regulation for the person, so that's what. Speaker 1 01:04:10 We were just going to say. Interesting point. Thank you. You do you have, I mean, I. Speaker 6 01:04:19 Had a hard time to understand the task in the first place, but it really helped to talk to you. And then I made some comments here for the first typographic element, like the typographic emphasis. I thought this has a signaling function, so I just try to connect these elements to what I know about learning and how to help students understand learning material better and signaling can be such a thing. Highlight important words. It's a way how typographic elements can help learn the understanding and also for text structuring and hierarchy I was thinking about cognitive load theory maybe because like structuring and putting the information into hierarchy can help to reduce cognitive both, therefore help students learn acquire knowledge, but I don't know if I understood the task correctly, because it was just like the. Speaker 1 01:05:33 Thoughts that I had on I mean you hear that since twelve, fifteen, so I think you did a good job to transfer, so I think you understand it quite well and thanks for your insights. Speaker 2 01:05:52 I think that this is what have been done in the seventies and eighties. A lot of text research and now these. Cues can be used for cognitive effects alone. It's a valid point, but I feel like now we should be one step further already. Speaker 1 01:06:11 Thank you the last row. Speaker 7 01:06:16 We thought about well cognitive love theory was already taken. And I'm not in the field for super long to tell you. Something that is wow amazing. And I'm going to steal this idea from Tino that told me this morning he showed me or suggested me this theory, this model called construction integration model and basically we're. Discussing that on my own project more related to the retrieval part, so basically I think also based on what type of information and which phase you want to focus on. If it's the learning phase or if it's more like the testing phase, then the kind of theory that you want to support your claim can differ so we were discussing versus that the cognitive theory is probably more on the learning phase and then if you want to focus more on the like matrivial part or the testing part, then you might consider something different. And if I think about text this model specifically has a lot to do on the information and how they organized mentally for learner and maybe. That can help mostly the part related to the really hierarchy, because if you structure the text in a way where it's already suggesting some type of hair key to the content that you want to deliver, then it's easier to like for the student to create their own structure-like mental mod information that they're receiving. Speaker 6 01:07:57 And storing basically. Speaker 7 01:08:00 Then we had a discussion also about use of signaling or something like that. Then we didn't know whether that was the direction that you wanted to go to and I thought not necessarily, but maybe it's my wrong guess. Speaker 1 01:08:13 And if so I'm sorry, there's no wrong we are. This is a discussions, so you have. Speaker 7 01:08:22 Already an idea in your head and at this grasp it, which can also be. Speaker 1 01:08:28 Thank you for your thoughts. Speaker 9 01:08:31 So I come from a different background actually. But I know in the dyslexia research white space online spacing something that's very well researched because they play along in several experiments and that has two. So perhaps you can take a look and done what they experiment with web design and even written text, printed text. Speaker 1 01:08:52 So I don't know if you're in. Speaker 9 01:08:54 This very type, a very specific type of education research, right? And then I put two links when it came to motivation somewhere, I don't know because my phone appeared as deleted user, because I know I think this one. Speaker 1 01:09:14 Of those. Speaker 9 01:09:15 Yeah, I don't remember which part I. Speaker 1 01:09:17 Put it, but I put two links. Speaker 9 01:09:18 To two things, one paper and one book, because I know that they've been. The research has been conducted on how web design for learners enhance. Motivation creativity, so that could also be something else. Speaker 1 01:09:33 Yeah, thank you. Speaker 9 01:09:35 And that was my input, because this. Speaker 1 01:09:37 Is a really new topic, but it's good inputs, yeah, but it's maybe very. Speaker 2 01:09:41 Well linked to what kind of goal we want to achieve if it's a very creative one. Speaker 1 01:09:51 Thank you. Speaker 5 01:09:55 First I also was a bit lost because I also asked myself I go into in educational context, like in a classroom setting or not in a classroom, Because if I read educational psychology, educational theory, then I think a formal education. So if learning psychology is not necessary, but I wanted to ask you in the experiments you consider was this context or not? This is one question for me. But then. Yes, and then I was thinking try to fill that. And then I was thinking cognitive load, but I'm not expecting that not at all. And then you encouraged me to think further about the idea I shared before. And then I was thinking maybe it could be interesting to work with Pierre Bourdieu, habitus theory, because habitus theoretically should form the perceptions of statics, also the meaning we give to aesthetics and so on. And maybe for some students some aesthetic is not for all. Yes, and so my suggestion is to do whatever experiment you want to do. Maybe try to do a Latin profile analysis or something like. That to show, to see if there are different profiles Linking Backgrounds, Variables, Cultural Capital, de. Speaker 1 01:11:25 I mean in the Marketing and Design Science or Design research, we have a lot of profiling if it's to marketing ideas that we make profiles. And then we said, ah, she's young, sportive and eats a lot of vegetables and then we design for this profile. So I'm really into that idea. I like it and I take it. Maybe also qualitative. Speaker 2 01:12:04 Or the other way around you look into literature where different profiles of learning types. I'm not liking the word learner. Speaker 1 01:12:11 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 01:12:12 But like different forms of how people start with the learning process and how you can adapt to them with the design of materials. And Mike Bege, he also looked at the desirable difficulty theory in terms of typography, saying that maybe some of the fonts also might be hard to read and this moment of having something that is hard to read also aligns with the kind of theory that you put more effort into it. And by putting more effort into it, you learn more from what you read. That could also be theory that you can use for some of the design. Speaker 1 01:13:02 It's the disruption moment. Speaker 2 01:13:07 Of education. Speaker 4 01:13:11 I think that the studies mainly about this fluency. Speaker 3 01:13:21 The point is what are successful papers in academia? Yeah, really Really interesting. Speaker 1 01:13:29 Thought. Speaker 3 01:13:29 There are more recent publications, especially in the field of educational technology. One just came out. Twenty-Twenty-Five. What Are Highly? Cited articles? What do they do? There has been papers in nature and science on the topic as well, bibliometric analysis. What are the highest cited papers? One thing is there should be some level of disrupt and there should be some level of interdisciplinarity, but not too much. It's really interesting because you should be, when you think about these theories, you think about, okay, what kind of theory can I get? And what journal can I publish? That's essentially the consideration and what you should think about. Now you told us, okay, what I have done in design was like we identified certain subgroups we want to design for this could be exactly the type of thinking. We need to further like theories like signaling and seductive details and things like that, because we're sort of, sorry, I would say we're sort of stuck so we. Know these things. Seductive details is bad, yeah, all right, fine. But you could have some like alternative approach, citing seductive detail theory like having a theoretical part, but also saying, okay, in design there is a different approach, maybe this could disrupt signaling and seductive and I would really think about what can you offer to disrupt the theories we have. Speaker 1 01:15:19 Yeah, thank you. I think that was a good ending or point after the discussion and I thank you for all the ideas and I think it sharps my ideas, maybe also my role and I'm looking forward to present next semester. Thank you. Speaker 2 01:15:44 I think that was a very different. Speaker 1 01:15:46 Kind of presentation. Speaker 2 01:15:49 To bring us into a more active role. Speaker 8 01:15:51 Maybe we can have some more of. Speaker 2 01:15:52 These presentations also in the next semester. Thank you for those who watch from the outside. One more coming today, we have a presentation by Colin Kramer. He will be at the institute and he will present his theory about meta reflexivity. If I translate it correctly so how teachers have to reflect on different roles, but also on different processes of their learners. It's very interesting and very new approach that he is building and maybe you're interested in. Come to presentation. Also starts at four fifty, I forgot. Speaker 1 01:16:37 A very important part of my presentation. Sorry, I know we talked about. Should also be a bit different presentation in that kind of activation, but also so it's an invitation if you want or if you have ideas or if you know how to interrupt educational theories with me, I'm very glad if you contact me and want to make an experience with me. That is very important to say at the end, thank you. Speaker 2 01:17:16 The room is. Speaker 4 01:17:56 I think that was really great. Speaker 1 01:18:00 I even have an idea.